Is it unwise to call the Magi "three wise men"?

[UMSonOfMan7]

Church rethinks three wise 'men'

The Three Wise Men who followed the star to Bethlehem bearing gifts for the baby Jesus may not have been all that wise -- or even men.

The traditional infant nativity play scene could be in for a drastic rewrite after the Church of England indulged in some academic gender-swapping over the three Magi at its General Synod in London this week.

A committee revising the latest prayer book said the term "Magi" was a transliteration of the name used by officials at the Persian court, and that they could well have been women.

"Magi is a word which discloses nothing about numbers, wisdom or gender embodied in the term," a Synod spokesman said on Tuesday after the revision was agreed by the Church of England's parliament which meets twice a year.

In the authorized 17th century King James bible used by up to 70 million worshippers in Anglican churches around the world, the gift-bearing visitors are referred to as "The Three Wise Men."

Now they are to be called just "Magi" and no longer gender-specific in the Anglican prayer book.

"Changing 'Wise Men' to 'Magi' seems to be an entirely sensible move," the Synod spokesman said.

The revision committee said: "While it seems very unlikely that these Persian court officials were female, the possibility that one or more of the Magi were female cannot be excluded completely."

There is no theological dispute about the gifts they brought -- gold, frankincense and myrrh -- but the prayer has been changed to use the word Magi on the grounds that "the visitors were not necessarily wise and not necessarily men."

Synod officials denied that the Church of England, a pillar of the Establishment in Britain, was being seized by an attack of political correctness and pandering to feminists.

The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like "The Three Fairly Sagacious Persons" and "Is it unwise to call the Magi men?"

On Tuesday, the Synod will be turning its attention to "Gender Neutral Titles."

Anglicans are debating whether words like "Chairman" can be replaced at committee meetings by more neutral words like "Chair."

If they are correct that it is unlikely the Magi were women, then I think the focus on the term "men" is undue, but it's no secret that the Bible doesn't say anything about there being "three" and as the Anglicans have pointed out, the Greek word meaning "Magi" doesn't say anything about being wise either. So, it seems completely appropriate to me to change the term from "three wise men" to "Magi" when it was "Magi" in the first place and the first two words in that phrase are completely unsubstantiated in terms of their accuracy and the third is uncertain.

What do you all think?

[Icebrc]

Can we at least keep the song the way it is?

[pattilyn]

Interesting - I had never considered that any of the Magi could have been female.

I have understood that there weren't necessarily three persons bringing the gifts. Scripture mentions three gifts and that is where that assumption comes from. I have always wanted to have a nativity set with a few "extra" kings in it, just to stir conversation...

[Icebrc]

Does "magi" mean "king"

[Underdog]

I always thought that this was common knowledge.

My favorite Xmas song is 'We Three Kings', I'd hate to think that I’d have to start singing 'We Indeterminate Number of Ungendered Magi'. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

[Underdog]

Does "magi" mean "king"

I think 'magi' means 'magician' I've heard it taken to mean 'astrologer' as well.

You know, 'wise man'.

[lotus_pixie]

I always thought that this was common knowledge.

My favorite Xmas song is 'We Three Kings', I'd hate to think that I’d have to start singing 'We Indeterminate Number of Ungendered Magi'. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

I think it's silly to just change things to be politically correct all the time. But historical accuracy should be strived for.

[UMSonOfMan7]

I always thought that this was common knowledge.

My favorite Xmas song is 'We Three Kings', I'd hate to think that I’d have to start singing 'We Indeterminate Number of Ungendered Magi'. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

[fragmentsofdreams]

Does "magi" mean "king"

I think 'magi' means 'magician' I've heard it taken to mean 'astrologer' as well.

You know, 'wise man'.

It is my understanding that magi was a term for a Persian court official.

[jonesy]

Well you're absolutely right UM, the reference in the bible has always been Magi. Not three wise men. However, they must've been wise enough to stay outta Herod's way With a little help from our Father!

[LoveEndures]

Their position in the Persian courts should at least indicate a modicum of wisdom on behalf of these Magi, their gender and numbers can be up for debate but as the documents that we have indicate neither then I would think it is right that the original term given be used. Of course the song must remain as is, a dozen Magi sounds like something that should be in the twelve days of Christmas.

[Underdog]

Does "magi" mean "king"

I think 'magi' means 'magician' I've heard it taken to mean 'astrologer' as well.

You know, 'wise man'.

It is my understanding that magi was a term for a Persian court official.

I think you're right, but I think they were the court astrologers. I may be misremembering.

I was just setting up the joke about it basically mean the same think as 'wise man'.

[UMSonOfMan7]

Their position in the Persian courts should at least indicate a modicum of wisdom on behalf of these Magi,

Hmm...judging by the folks allowed into our Administration, I'm not so that is true.

[Heathen Dawn]

[acronym="As far as I know"]AFAIK[/acronym] a Magus (Persian amgosh) was a Zoroastrian priest.

[LoveEndures]

Hmm...judging by the folks allowed into our Administration, I'm not so that is true.

Ya know I can't fault you for saying that, I wonder myself at times.

The difference is that if an advisor gave bad advice in the court then they would loose their head, we can't actually do that nowadays and so we get stuck with the percieved wisdom of those already in authority until they are to infirm to go on.

[LoveEndures]

[acronym="As far as I know"]AFAIK[/acronym] a Magus (Persian amgosh) was a Zoroastrian priest.

Did the term Magi only refer to Zoroastrain priests? Or could it also refer to anyother leader of a religion or person of knowledge?

[grant]

What I'm curious about is where the number 3 came from... and where their names came from. Traditionally, they're called Caspar, Melchior and Balthazar. What I'm wondering now is, says who?

[UMSonOfMan7]

What I'm curious about is where the number 3 came from... and where their names came from. Traditionally, they're called Caspar, Melchior and Balthazar. What I'm wondering now is, says who?

The "three" comes from the three gifts (presuming that each gift was given by exactly one person, not that a couple people gave three gifts or several/many people gave three gifts or gave multiples of the same three gifts).

As for the names, well I found this on this genealogy site but they don't cite where the information comes from.

Magi. The three wise men from the East who brought presents of gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the infant Christ (Matt. ii.). According to tradition they were Eastern kings, and were named respectively Melchior, Gaspar, and Balthazar. It is said that their bodies were brought by the Empress Helena to Constantinople, but that they were subsequently interred at Milan and Cologne. From this last circumstance they were called the Three Kings of Cologne.

and this from some deacon's Epiphany homily last year. He also didn't cite his information.

The first part of the message of Epiphany is symbolized in the three gifts brought by the Wise ones--gold to indicate Jesus's royalty, frankincense to indicate His divinity, and myrrh (an embalming spice) to indicate His death. The second part of the message is symbolized in the persons of the three Wise ones themselves. According to tradition their names were Caspar, Melchior, and Balthazar. Caspar was shown in pictures as a Caucasian, Melchior as a middle-Easterner (and later as East Asian), and Balthazar as an African Negro.

Anyway, that's all I can find on the internet right now; a lot of German sites came up in my search as well, but I can't read them. If I had the time, I'd do some more in depth research to try to figure this out, but I don't really have the time or impetus for it.

[grant]

Yeah, they're big in Germany.

And in Mexico, Christmas gifts are exchanged on Three Kings' Day -- the Epiphany. (Which seems practical to me.)

Those names, actually, do have a kind of German-version-of-exotic-Persia feel to them. Hmm.

I'm asking around elsewhere, too.

[grant]

Catholic Encyclopedia:

The religion of the Magi was fundamentally that of Zoroaster and forbade sorcery; their astrology and skill in interpreting dreams were occasions of their finding Christ. (See THEOLOGICAL ASPECTS OF THE AVESTA.)

The Gospel narrative omits to mention the number of the Magi, and there is no certain tradition in this matter. Some Fathers speak of three Magi; they are very likely influenced by the number of gifts. In the Orient, tradition favours twelve.
...The names of the Magi are as uncertain as is their number. Among the Latins, from the seventh century, we find slight variants of the names, Gaspar, Melchior, and Balthasar; the Martyrology mentions St. Gaspar, on the first, St. Melchior, on the sixth, and St. Balthasar, on the eleventh of January (Acta SS., I, 8, 323, 664). The Syrians have Larvandad, Hormisdas, Gushnasaph, etc.; the Armenians, Kagba, Badadilma, etc. (Cf. Acta Sanctorum, May, I, 1780). Passing over the purely legendary notion that they represented the three families which are decended from Noah, it appears they all came from "the east" (Matt., ii, 1, 2, 9). East of Palestine, only ancient Media, Persia, Assyria, and Babylonia had a Magian priesthood at the time of the birth of Christ. From some such part of the Parthian Empire the Magi came.

and Iran Zemin:

They are called "Magi" from the Latinized form of the Greek word magoi, transliterated from the Persian, for a select sect of priests. (Our word "magic" comes from the same root.)
As the years passed, the traditions became increasingly embellished. By the 3rd century they were viewed as kings. By the 6th century they had names: Bithisarea, Melichior, and Gathaspa. Some even associated them with Shem, Ham and Japheth--the three sons of Noah--and thus with Asia, Africa, and Europe. A 141h century Armenian tradition identifies them as Balthasar, King of Arabia; Melchior, King of Persia; and Gasper, King of India.
The ancient Magi were a hereditary priesthood of the Medes (known today as the Kurds) credited with profound and extraordinary religious knowledge. After some Magi, who had been attached to the Median court, proved to be expert in the interpretation of dreams, Darius the Great established them over the state religion of Persia. (2) (Contrary to popular belief, the Magi were not originally followers of Zoroaster. (3) That all came later.)It was in this dual capacity, whereby civil and political counsel was invested with religious authority, that the Magi became the supreme priestly caste of the Persian empire and continued to be prominent during the subsequent Seleucid, Parthian, and Sasanian periods. (4)

There's more fun stuff about their sacrificing any living thing except dogs and men as you go down the passage.

[Ganesh]

My favorite Xmas song is 'We Three Kings', I'd hate to think that I’d have to start singing 'We Indeterminate Number of Ungendered Magi'. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

No, but I could see myself singing 'We Queens'. In a gay bar.